Upon returning home from “The Great Rapture Debate” between Dr. Doug Stauffer and Pastor Joe Schimmel in Colorado Springs, CO on June 19, 2016, I have been asked many times about my opinion of how the debate went. While I admittedly already maintained a post-trib perspective, as affirmed by president and founder of Good Fight Ministries, Joe Schimmel, I happen to enjoy watching and reviewing debates and I will do my best to review this debate from a viewer standpoint.
The Great Rapture Debate: My Completely Biased Review
By Chad Davidson
Dr. Doug Stauffer was also a blessing to us every time we spoke with him and could not have been more complimentary of Pastor Joe, even in his recap of the debate, where he stated:
“Furthermore, I believe my opponent, Joe Schimmel, to be a man of great integrity greatly used in the Lord’s work to especially expose Hollywood. I may vehemently disagree with him concerning his particular position on the timing of the Rapture but this is only one segment of his overall work for the Lord. He has done some great things for the glory of God and I pray that God will continue to use him. I told him as much after the debate while we were still on stage shaking hands behind the moderator.” (–Dr. Doug Stauffer, “To Debate or Not to Debate?,” June 24, 2016)
I believe his statements echo the sentiment that we saw from those we met with at the conference. It is a blessing to be around those who view Biblical prophecy as an important issue in our time and wish to use it to share the gospel and edify the body of Christ!
Now For The Debate
My greatest impression immediately after the debate was, “This is the most one sided debate I have witnessed in a long time!” Pastor Joe had a number of pre-tribs convinced that the post-trib position was the biblical one not long after the debate had started.
The format for the debate was quite different than what you would typically see in a moderated debate. Rather than having cross examinations from each debater (something Joe would have preferred, but Dr. Stauffer doesn’t believe in), most of the time was spent giving presentations on each position and less time was given for the rebuttal of one another’s statements. Nevertheless, the debate was still beneficial and a blessing to the body of Christ.
The opening statements were a time for both participants to articulate their position and express, in short, what they would be sharing throughout the 6 hour debate. Pastor Joe posited that there is not a single verse/passage in the entire Bible that places the rapture 7 years prior to Christ’s 2nd coming, quoting Tim LaHaye and even his opponent Dr. Doug Stauffer to affirm his position. After quoting Dr. Stauffer himself admitting this problem, every time Dr. Stauffer began to speak he only helped confirm this point, as he was unable to produce any clear scripture affirming a pre-trib rapture.Pastor Joe shared multiple Scriptures, including Matthew 24:29-31 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-11; 2:1-4, to show that the Bible places the rapture at the end of the tribulation period. Dr. Stauffer took his opening statements as a time to explain that the rapture and the gathering spoken of in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are two different events. He explained that believers need to rightly divide the word of God and bemoaned the errors of replacement theology, a point that Joe also agrees with.
The second round of the debate began what I considered to be the “knock down, drag out” portion of the debate. Not only did we see Dr. Stauffer’s lack of preparation and knowledge of his opponent, we saw his absolute disdain for the early church fathers. Why do I call Dr. Stauffer out for “his lack of preparation”? Because he simply was not prepared to answer the points that Joe brought up in the rebuttal sessions. While the lack of cross-examination forced each opponent to guess the points that the other was going to make, he didn’t seem to know any of Joe’s positions concerning The Early Church, Morgan Edwards, Margaret MacDonald or John Nelson Darby. While he was usually fairly comfortable giving his presentations, his rebuttal was planned for Joe to show that the pre-trib rapture teaching came from Margaret MacDonald. However, there was a serious problem with this. Not only did Joe never bring this up in his presentation of church history, it is not a position he even holds to. If Dr. Stauffer would have watched the DVD, Left Behind or Led Astray?, which he claims to be basing his argument from, he would no doubt understand that Joe specifically states that the official position of the ministry is that she did not come up with the pre-trib rapture, but rather the “secret” portion of the pre-trib rapture. Sadly, Dr. Stauffer did not even have to watch our DVD to figure this out. We made a rebuttal video that he could have watched for free right here on this website or on our Good Fight Ministries official YouTube channel that addressed this exact point.
Good Fight Ministries is not the largest ministry around. While we all pour hours upon hours into the ministry, most of us have other ministerial duties that go along with working at Good Fight. For example, Joe is the lead pastor of Blessed Hope Chapel in Simi Valley, CA and not only counsels every week (sometimes everyday), but also teaches twice a week. Messages that are indepth and need hours upon hours of preparation. Tony, our video editor, webmaster and graphic artist (who designed all of Joe’s wonderful slides at the debate), also serves as a church worship leader and handles all of the technical duties at the church. I myself (Chad) serve as the youth pastor as well as president of Revivus Ministries (Tony is also the Corporate Secretary and Event Production Mgr. for Revivus). I am also a volunteer teacher at Ventura County Rescue Mission. I do not present this background to boast, but to point out that we all have a lot of pans on the fire. With all of that said, I was not the one debating Dr. Doug Stauffer, but I made sure to do my due diligence and Joe asked me to help review his teachings with him. As a ministry we bought every book and DVD we could find that might reveal Dr. Stauffer’s teachings on the subject of the rapture. Joe gave me the job of watching every teaching on the DVD’s God’s Wrath versus The Pre-Tribulation RAPTURE and In The Last Days. I watched each DVD and sent Joe a time stamp review of the material. When I found material I thought was interesting, we would review it together and Joe would formulate proper argumentation for what was said. Joe also watched several of Dr. Stauffer’s presentations on the rapture, read every book he was aware of where Dr. Stauffer had written on the subject, and made notes throughout. Tony listened to Dr. Stauffer’s teachings online and we all watched every video that we could find on YouTube. While there wasn’t going to be a lot of time for rebuttals, Joe believed that it was important to know as much as he could about the beliefs of Dr. Stauffer.I say all of this to point to the fact that, although we hold strongly to our convictions and can see what God’s word clearly says, Joe did not want to go into the debate with any stone left unturned. While I heard Dr. Stauffer proclaim many times in his DVD’s that he “Reads his critics more than those who he agrees with,” he obviously did not do his homework for this debate when it comes to Pastor Joe Schimmel. If this is because he did not believe in interacting with material from one another, then his usage of the Margaret MacDonald clip from Left Behind or Led Astray? (which was taken out of context) was against his own position concerning debates. If that was not the case, then he most assuredly did not desire to engage with what Pastor Joe had to offer. While I am specifically referring to the Margaret MacDonald accusation at this point, during the Q & A segment, the same could also be said when Joe was asked about the Millennial Kingdom and who was going to populate it. Joe was asked to repeat his answer because Dr. Stauffer could not follow Joe’s answer, as he appeared to be typing something into his laptop. In all honesty, he looked disinterested at that portion of the debate. He showed his lack of preparation not only because he did not seem ready for any sort of Q & A (he was even unable to answer a question as simple as “Are we the bride of Christ?”), but he could have at least listened to an answer that Joe gave by going to our website, leftbehindorledastray.org, in which Joe gives an answer on the subject of “Who Will Populate the Millennium?” in much greater detail.
Reminiscent of James White vs. Dan Barker
There is a funny video online with the title “Don’t Quote Me, Bro!” It is taken from a short clip of a debate featuring Dr. James White and Dan Barker. While that debate had to do with whether or not the “Jesus story” was made up out of a bunch of pagan myths, the debate was pretty much lost at the outset when Dan Barker exclaimed that he didn’t believe it was fair that James White would quote him to disprove his position. Barker claimed he no longer believed some of the positions that he once held when writing his book. As White answered him (in somewhat of a stunned fashion), he explained that he had never had anyone make such a suggestion in a moderated debate. Barker continued his protest and James asked him whether or not he was still selling this material at his table out front? The answer was yes and the debate eventually moved on, begrudgingly enough on Barker’s part. Needless to say, the debate did not go well for Mr. Barker and the same could be said of Dr. Doug Stauffer. If there was any point in the debate that Dr. Stauffer seemed disheveled and upset, it was when Joe quoted from his book entitled “One Book Rightly Divided” multiple times throughout the debate. Joe revealed that Stauffer was teaching that there are different gospels by which people may be saved, that during the tribulation the gospel will be “different” than the gospel of grace and will be more works based than the gospel of grace. Joe also pointed out that Stauffer was teaching that about half the New Testament books (13 of them) were not written to church age believers, but rather for the tribulation saints! That reading such books was tantamount to “Reading Someone Else’s Mail” (the title of one of the chapters in his book “One Book Rightly Divided”). However, Dr. Stauffer explained to the audience that he no longer believed what was written in his book and that he was actually in the middle of re-writing it. He said that people make mistakes all the time and so does he. While that is true, and we wouldn’t want to hold anyone to a position they no longer hold too, Dr. Stauffer suffered from the same problem that Barker had in his debate with Dr. James White. Joe asked why, if he regarded portions of his book as error now, he was still selling material espousing such views outside of the auditorium doors? Dr. Stauffer was selling his DVD “God’s Wrath vs. The Pre-tribulation Rapture” which, interestingly enough, in the very first disc featured in that DVD set, talks about his book “One Book Rightly Divided” and mentions the section “Who’s Mail Are You Reading?,” the very same section that Joe was quoting from that Dr. Stauffer was so upset about. Joe brought to his attention the fact that he was profiting at this conference and online with what he would admit is false teaching. (See my update on our Facebook post, “Hard to defend your position when you don’t believe your own words.”Dr. Stauffer seemed to have spent quite a bit of time trying to answer Scriptures that reveal a post-trib rapture and was therefor forced to use another tactic. As author and speaker Douglas Hamp said, “..he is going to types and shadows…because he doesn’t have a verse. Typical.” When the portion of the gospels came into play and Joe revealed the Church in the Olivet Discourse and the rapture to be post-trib, Dr. Stauffer was forced to claim that this had nothing to do with the Church. Joe was able to show the clear references of Paul’s letters to this very event and that the only consistent view of Scripture is that the Church is in view until the end of the age. Dr. Stauffer then stunned many in the audience by claiming that the English words used did a better job than the Greek words that Joe was appealing to. (One person actually approached me in the back to explain she was pre-trib but didn’t believe “this kind of stuff”.) It was his opinion that although the Greek text that the King James translators used for “age” and “world” might have been the same (in terms of the “end of the age” and “end of the world” statements by Jesus), the King James did a better job of separating these two differences. It seemed that after this portion of the debate many pre-tribs in the crowd began to leave and some did not come back. Even one of the pre-trib speakers at the event, who was sitting next to me and giving hearty “amens” (contrary to the moderator’s instructions I might add) during Dr. Stauffer’s presentation, left the debate and I did not recall seeing him come back for the rest of the debate.
Joe was also able to show during this section of the debate that the King James translators, who Stauffer relies upon heavily as a King James Only proponent, also placed the rapture at the end of the tribulation. Joe revealed that they referenced the rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 in the margin of Matthew 24:29-31, with Jesus’ second coming “after the tribulation.”
Dr. Stauffer also used this time to point out pre-trib teachings that he himself disagrees with and even “hates.” He showed that Lot and Noah were both pictures of the tribulation saint and not to be used for a reference to the pre-trib rapture. He did however employ this tactic with Enoch, claiming that Enoch being taken before the flood was a picture of the pre-trib rapture. However, Pastor Joe pointed out that Enoch was taken over 500 years before the flood and therefore is as much of a stretch to claim that God took Enoch so he could avoid the flood as claiming that Columbus died when he did so he could avoid dying on September 11, 2001 in the World Trade Center!During the Epistles portion of the debate, Pastor Joe showed that 1 Thessalonians 1 and 2 actually gives us the time stamp for the post-tribulation rapture. Joe took time to show that the “relief” the church is given in chapter 1 does not happen in a pre-trib rapture, but rather at the second coming of Christ:
“These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.” (2 Thessalonians 1:9-10)
He then pointed out that this leads right to the passages in 2 Thessalonians where Paul speaks of the “gathering,” which Dr. Stauffer admits is the rapture. But Joe pointed out that the gathering spoken of here does not happen until the falling away happens first and the anti-Christ is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). This would make it impossible for a pre-trib rapture. Dr. Stauffer said yes, the falling away does happen first, but the anti-Christ is not revealed before the rapture. It is his belief that the comma in this passage separated the two events by, at the very least, 3-1/2 years. Pastor Joe responded by stating that Stauffer was engaging in eisegesis (reading into the text) rather than exegesis (drawing from the text). Dr. Stauffer also presented a chart in which 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 was talking about a present and future event, separating the “relief” or “rest” from the second coming. Pastor Joe pointed out that the context clearly reveals that the relief in question is at the second coming of Christ. This was also the point in the debate where Pastor Joe emphasized that Dr. Stauffer held to a doctrine that there are/will be two different gospels: one for us here and now, and another gospel for those during the tribulation period. He separated the Gospel of the Kingdom from the Everlasting Gospel, making them two separate and distinct gospels. This was obviously a point of great contention. Joe quoted Galatians 1:6-9, giving Paul’s warning against another gospel. While Stauffer sought to downplay Pastor Schimmel’s use of his book again, he nonetheless affirmed that he still believes that these gospels are “different,” affirming Pastor Joe’s critique of Dr. Stauffer’s works!The arguments made from both Schimmel and Stauffer during the Book of Revelation portion of the debate could not have been any less parallel. Dr. Stauffer’s main argument hinged on the idea that the book of Revelation was written in chronological order. He claims that the apostle John is a picture of the rapture. He arrives as a matter of deduction, based on the word “church” not found after Revelation chapter 3, that the church must be raptured before the time of tribulation. Joe spent his first minute reciting much of the first chapter of Revelation by memory. He then used those memory verses to elaborate on Jesus’ promise to the Church in verse 3 of Revelation chapter 1, stating “How can you keep the words of this prophecy if it has no application to you at all?” Pastor Joe also quoted from a freshly published book by Dr. Stauffer, where Stauffer warns that it is not good bible study to use John being caught up to heaven as a picture of the raptured Church. Joe pointed out that if John is a picture of the Church being caught up, then the Church will be like a Yo-Yo during the tribulation period, as he pointed out with several passages from Revelation that John continually goes back and forth from Heaven to Earth throughout his vision. He also spent a healthy amount of time showing the “church” by way of descriptive language, rather than “ekklesia” or church. Joe pointed out that the word “church” is not used of the believers in heaven either! The term “bride,” which is another word for the Church, is used just before Jesus comes for her after the tribulation in Revelation 19:7-11. Joe asked the question, “What looks more like the Church, the 24 elders (which Dr. Stauffer proposed) or the blood-bought believers from every nation, kindred and tongue who come out of the great tribulation mentioned in Revelation 7:9-14?” While Pastor Joe was only able to get through half of the book of Revelation in his slides, he provided strong evidence that we certainly are here during the tribulation period.
Other Reviews: Alan Kurschuner
Alan Kurschner of Eschatos Ministries did a 1 hour and 20 minute review of the debate on his podcast “The Biblical Prophecy Program” on June 20, 2016. Kurschner is a proponent of the pre-wrath position and has publicly challenged Dr. Stauffer to debate the subject. Kurschner made the following comment on the debate:
“I honestly believe that Schimmel had the upper-hand in this debate. His arguments were a lot more focused. He responded to Stauffer’s arguments more consistently. He was more concrete in his arguments […] his argumentation was just better. There were some points that were just excellent.” –Alan Kurschner, “My Review of the Rapture Debate Between Pre-Trib Doug Stauffer and Post-Trib Joe Schimmel-Ep 61,” June 20, 2016
Where Kurschner really had a problem was with Dr. Stauffer’s assertions concerning the original Greek text and the Early Church Fathers. Kurschner quoted a statement made by Dr. Stauffer:
“There is a problem with going to the Greek. The Greek is imprecise compared to the English. Just look at an English dictionary … It’s so laughable bu it is so sad.” (Ibid.)
Kurschner not only holds an M.A. in biblical languages, but also is currently working on his Ph.D. in the area of Greek linguistics and runs the Center for Learning Biblical Greek. So you can imagine why he found this statement to be “laughable” and “sad”. Kurschner believed that Dr. Stauffer lost the debate so badly that He even made the following prediction:
“Doug Stauffer will not be a debate participant in the Prophecy In The News Conference next year” further stating, “I really wonder how many emails Prophecy in The News got this morning. From their own people … even pre-tribbers who follow Prophecy In The News.” Kurschner further stated that Prophecy in the News would likely receive emails saying, “Who is this Doug Stauffer guy? I don’t identify with this guy. This guy is wacky when it comes to his views on the English Bible. On the Bible itself.” (Ibid.)
Another position that Kurschner took offense to was Dr. Stauffer’s position on Church history. While Pastor Joe revealed that even pre-trib leaders admit the early church father’s were post-trib, Dr. Stauffer tried to discredit them claiming that they were all heretics. Kurschner pointed out that this was not only untrue, but that many of these men were martyred for their faith and documented the fact that the beloved King James translators, to whom Dr. Stauffer pays homage, relied heavily on the church fathers as their guides in their translations. As Kurschner put it:
“I felt like he is teaching that the gates of hades prevailed against the church of God! The way he talked about it. … It was really appalling […] it was appalling on the level of showing his massive ignorance of church history and his disdain for it.” (Ibid.)
Kurschner stated that those in the audience, like leading pre-trib advocate Dr. Thomas Ice, who would otherwise agree with Dr. Stauffer’s pre-trib position, would not necessarily agree with his categorical stance in writing off the early Church fathers. He pointed out:
“Thomas Ice was in the audience. I’m sure during that discussion, Thomas Ice probably was ready to throw up. Walk out. Because you know that’s his area, church history. I’m sure that did not sit well with Thomas Ice.” (Ibid.)
Alan Kurschner’s conclusion was that “he really embarrassed Prophecy in the News”. You can listen to the entire episode here: My Review of the Rapture Debate between Pre-Trib Doug Stauffer and Post-Trib Jow Schimmel–Ep. 61
Other Reviews: Douglas Hamp
Author and speaker Douglas Hamp, who attended the debate, actually did a live blog on his personal Facebook page during the entire debate. Doug Hamp was himself a pre-tribulationist until he heard Dr. Thomas Ice claim at a pre-trib rapture Conference in Dallas, TX in 2012 that the “falling away” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 is really the pre-trib rapture. This so troubled Hamp as a professor of both Hebrew and Greek that he set out on a personal study and found that the pre-trib rapture he himself was espousing and defending is nowhere taught in scripture. His Facebook page covering the Great Rapture Debate between Pastor Schimmel and Dr. Stauffer had over 130 updates and comments from those who were there and those paying attention through his updates. After initially stating, “Joe Schimmel just did a great job presenting the post trib rapture evidence,” he summarily added updates on his Facebook throughout the debate like the following:
Douglas Hamp: Doug Stauffer has not yet given any Scriptural evidence for the timing of the pretrib. He is mentioning how the “gathering” is different than the rapture. That is silly when Paul himself says that the rapture and the gathering is the same thing.
Douglas Hamp: He says the key is God’s Word to understand…but he hasn’t given us the place in God’s Word where it actually says that.
Douglas Hamp: I am still waiting for Stauffer to just give us a verse….hmm…perhaps he will give it to us later?? Then again, Joe already quoting him as saying that there isn’t a verse.
Douglas Hamp: Now he is telling us to believe only the Bible when in fact he can’t give us even ONE verse speaking of the timing.
Douglas Hamp: Doug S is back up…he is going to types and shadows…because he doesn’t have a verse. Typical.
Much like Alan Kurschner, Doug Hamp had a problem with Dr. Stauffer’s version of King James Onlyism, posting the following comments:
Douglas Hamp: I just discovered that Stauffer is a KJV only guy.
Douglas Hamp: Doug S just said that the problem with going to the Greek is imprecise unlike the English!!!!!!
Douglas Hamp: Yet again Doug S says that the English is (almost more) important (than the Greek).
Having previously held to the pre-tribulation position, Mr. Hamp said the following:
Douglas Hamp: It’s funny that I would have made similar arguments as Stauffer before I realized that we ought to have a clear verse for such a doctrine…
Mr. Hamp had the same concerns as Joe when it came to Dr. Stauffer proclaiming two different gospel messages:
Douglas Hamp: Doug S is up….he is now telling us how the gospel of Paul is different than the one Jesus taught…heresy coming? Doug S argues that the gospel of the Kingdom (which Jesus taught) is different than the gospel of grace (which Paul taught). I think I am feeling sick.
He also commended Joe on some of his argumentation:
Douglas Hamp: Joe is going through the epistles showing verse after verse in favor of the post trib. He just showed that the day of the Lord in 1Thes 4/5 is the second coming.
Douglas Hamp: Joe just shared this powerful passage with a TIME STAMP
2Thess 1:5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;
2Thess 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
2Thess 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Thess 1:8 in FLAMING FIRE taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Thess 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Thess 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
This is the second coming. Joe followed it up with:
2Thess 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
Douglas Hamp: “How can you keep the words of the this prophecy if it has not application to you at all” – Joe Schimmel.
You can find the rest of Doug Hamp’s comments on Douglas Hamp’s Facebook Page.
After the debate Doug Hamp invited Joe to be a guest on his program, The Awakening Report, where Hamp commended Joe for doing “an excellent job of defending the post-trib position.” The program, which was entitled “Great Rapture Debate Aftermath: The Awakening Report,” proved to be quite revealing and you can View It Here.
After a Question & Answer session, which was worth the price of admission and where the post-trib position was able to shine the brightest, the debate concluded with Dr. Stauffer and Pastor Joe giving concluding remarks with regard to preparing the Church for the end times. Dr. Stauffer gave a number of verses that state that the Church is to be ready to face tribulation, but denied that we had anything to do with the great tribulation. Pastor Joe gave several quotes from pre-tribs stating that if the rapture is not pre-trib then the blessed hope is the “blasted hope” (quoting Tim LaHaye in Rapture Under Attack, pg. 69). He gave several quotes of pre-tribs stating that God would be a “liar,” and even “evil” if he does not rapture the Church before the tribulation. Joe used this to point out that pre-tribulationism could be a “recipe for apostasy” and further pointed out that the reason so many will fall away when the tribulation starts is because they will feel as though God has broken His promise and be subjected to false Christs and false prophets that will emerge and deceive many at that time (Matthew 24:24, Mark 13:22). He went on to explain that Jesus gave us so many warnings about enduring to the end and gave clear instructions about how to avoid the spiritual land mines of the tribulation period, should it take place in our life times. Post-trib is the only view that properly prepares the church consistently with that of the teaching of Jesus.
The debate was an absolute blessing and I pray that this opens up a dialogue for believers to have further discussion. Our position as a ministry is that when people are able to see both sides and are not weighed down by heavy presuppositions, the clear reading of the Scriptures will bring you to a post-trib position. Doug Hamp said after the debate, “I can’t see anybody becoming pre-trib after that debate, but I can see people becoming post-trib.” We praise God that this is exactly what happened! I do believe that this is why we witnessed many people change their position at the debate. From the people that myself and others at the conference talked to, to the internet discussions we read, there are at least 15 different individuals who told us that the debate had changed their belief on the timing of the rapture. Not only was this amazing, but just some of the dialogue that was occurring made the entire trip well worth it. Aside from those who told Joe, Tony and myself personally that they had changed their views, in an elevator of the Marriott Hotel where the debate was held, one of the people in our group heard a group of friends leaving the first session discussing the fact that there simply isn’t a verse that teaches the pre-trib rapture and were now leaning post-trib. While in the bathroom, another person from our group (my wife), heard a couple of ladies saying they just don’t think they believe in the pre-trib rapture anymore. A man following the debate and commenting on Doug Hamp’s Facebook left the following remark:
These are the kinds of stories we heard all weekend and we couldn’t have been more excited. Praise God for the opportunity and we do pray that it opens the door for other brothers and sisters to be invited back to the table to speak at prophetic conferences and meetings, even if brothers and sisters disagree with them after the dialogue!